Curse

Chthon · May 13, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

First and foremost, REMOVE THE TIMER FROM SOUL REAPING FOR PVE.

Reasons:

1. Removing the timer isn't about making SR more powerful, it IS about fixing a whole bunch of problems caused by the timer's extremely poor design.

It's clunky, ugly, and unintuitive.
It punishes you for playing well. The better you do at eliminating mobs quickly, the worse it cuts into your energy gains, and the worse shape it leaves you in for the next mob.
It randomizes something that should be consistent. With 10 SR, from a 10-monster mob, you can gain as much as 100 energy, or as little as 3 (or even 0 if you have minions in tow). That's exceedingly random. This randomness...
- (1) Is extremely frustrating.
- (2) Makes it completely impossible to play at the level of skill where you plan for and "manage" your available energy. Supporters of the timer often say that "under the old SR, the answer to 'should I cast this spell now?' was always 'yes, because I don't have to worry about energy'"; but what they don't see is that, with the timer, the answer is "yes, because I have no way to predict whether I have to worry about energy or not, and I can't afford to 'live in fear' and never cast anything." In fact, the timer is slightly WORSE for encouraging energy "management" than unbounded soul reaping. If you fully understood and appreciated the old soul reaping, you could spend down all of your energy gains -- you could even tally up each mob before you engaged it, figure out how much energy you were going to gain, and plan out how you were going to use every point of energy before the battle even began. Few players actually played at that skill level, but it was at least possible. The random behavior under the timered soul reaping is impossible to predict, so "managing" your energy in that way is strictly impossible.
It conflicts with the intended synergy between Soul Reaping and corpse-exploitation skills. The obvious design intent behind soul reaping originally was to provide immediate energy for casting corpse-exploitation skills at the same time the corpse became available. The timer breaks this. Sometimes you get energy along with a corpse, and sometimes you don't. That's a problem.
(Additionally, some folks like Carinae would say that getting energy when there isn't a corpse is also a problem that needs fixed.)
It conflicts with the minion cap mechanic. Originally, the high prices on minion spells were justified because some of the energy wasn't actually spent, but rather "stored" in the minion and recovered through SR when it died. The minion cap didn't break this; it might kill a minion early, but you still got your energy back out of that minion. The timer breaks it. The cap may force a minion to die while the timer is denying energy, so the energy "stored" in that minion is lost for good. Moreover, this is somewhat likely to happen because the timer has certainly already triggered at least once by the death that provided the body that turned into the 11th minion.
This problem is worst in the case of shambling horrors that can go into a chain reaction against the minion cap, triggering the timer and continuing to kill off several more minions without returning energy.

2. Removing the timer absolutely has to be done, but it doesn't have to be the only change to SR in PvE. The timer has to be removed for all the reasons I listed above, but independent changes to reduce the overall power of SR could be done as well.
For instance, I could entirely support Carinae's plan of (1) remove the timer, and (2) remove SR from minions, and (3) drastically reduce the cost of all the minion skills. This would remove the "energy but no corpse" scenario, and it would remove the "one minion bomber powering an entire team of necros" gimmick that we see in Sabway.

3. Dividing PvE and PvP SR would also be extremely good for PvP. SR is horrifically weak in PvP. The only thing it ever had going for it was a couple of gimmicks that have been totally eliminated by the nerf to Jagged Bones and the nerf to SR triggering on spirits. Splitting SR allows for SR to be totally reworked from the ground up to make something useful in PvP without having to worry about messing up PvE.

-------------------------------------------------

2. People have suggested removing the minion cap. I agree. I posted reasons why it's a good idea and reasons why it wouldn't be another Ursan-grade steamroller in the original PvE/PvP Split thread, only to see it deleted as "off topic." Maybe tomorrow I'll get around to reposting it.

3. Ritual Lord/Shelter/Displacement/Union. I'd kinda lit to see the Rit Lord build viable again.

4. Pet Corpses. I'd kinda like to see B/P viable again.

5. Splinter weapon. Hi, this is PvE; we do have mobs where the target limit matters a ton.

6. Spiritual Pain.

7. GftE - remove that recharge.

8. Watch Yourselves - total revert.

9. Warrior stances need their duration back. In PvE we use them to tank and farm and need good duration on them.

10. EoE.

11. Remove armor stack cap for PvE.

12. LoD - NOT a full revert, because that took away every possible reason to run any other elite; but definitely something a LOT better than it is now.

13. Heal Party, put the healing back up where it was.

14. Inspiration line needs a whole bunch of reverts. I need to look into it more closely.

15. Just about every elite e-management skill that's been nerfed to dust needs a revert.

16. Nerf Ursan? I wouldn't mind, but it's low on my priority list. I'd like to see lots and lots of reverts FIRST. Make more ways of playing the game fun and viable again. Then you can go nerfing Ursan if you want to.

Snow Bunny · May 13, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Paragon
Command
GFTE reverted back to it’s original form.

Leadership
Aggressive Refrain reverted back to it’s original form.

Motivation
Change all motivational skills back to their original pre-nerf forms.

NOTE: This is for discussion of skills you would like to see returned for good use in PvE, Not a place to flame PvE players about skill or lack of skill.

BECAUSE PARAGONS ARE BAD IN PVE AMIRITE???????????????????

Kelson · May 13, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I'd like to thank 90% of the posts in this thread for reminding me it is quite possible to screw up skill balance worse than ANET has ever done, and that most of the player base has no clue how the game they are playing works.

Paragons useless outside pve skills?
Soul Reaping is bad?
Seriously?

.............................

The only thing I'd like to ask is that the changes between the two sets of skills are kept to an absolute minimum.

garethporlest18 · May 13, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Snip about SR

I never ever had a problem with my energy on necro. I don't see what the big deal is, I think SR is fine the way it is now. Even as a MM. Signet of Lost Souls is there for a reason ya know, and if you think you shouldn't be forced to carry that skill because it's good, then it's your own fault. SR doesn't need to be fixed.

Quote:

2. People have suggested removing the minion cap. I agree. I posted reasons why it's a good idea and reasons why it wouldn't be another Ursan-grade steamroller in the original PvE/PvP Split thread, only to see it deleted as "off topic." Maybe tomorrow I'll get around to reposting it.

I don't care about this one really but I don't think PvE needs to get any easier than it is now. We don't need to have a Flesh Golem and 25 Bone Minions running around owning everything. It's just like Ursan in another form. But if you have ideas for making it viable and not overpowered in PvE to the extent it makes another "Ursan" skill I'd like to see those.

Quote:

4. Pet Corpses. I'd kinda like to see B/P viable again.

5. Splinter weapon. Hi, this is PvE; we do have mobs where the target limit matters a ton.

6. Spiritual Pain.

4&5. I don't think Pet corpses need to be fixed, but I do think the pet line needs to be buffed a bit. Going back on old builds is not what we should be doing at this point, we should be firing up new builds and buffing skills that weren't previously able to be buffed because of the connection to PvP.

6. I do think this skill should be buffed a bit, as it is in PvE it's quite meh, seeing as the majority of enemies don't even use spirits and when they do a lot of the time they aren't near it. At least for me.

Quote:

8. Watch Yourselves - total revert.

9. Warrior stances need their duration back. In PvE we use them to tank and farm and need good duration on them.

8. This does not need to be reverted, it's seen it's use in PvE it's time we got a new skill.

9. Actually no. They reduced the recharge too so it's barely recognizable from the old way. It doesn't really need to last longer when it's available again. Plus we've got that PvE Dwarven skill that makes them last way way longer. So I rather they kept it the way it is, a lot easier to manage.

Quote:

16. Nerf Ursan? I wouldn't mind, but it's low on my priority list. I'd like to see lots and lots of reverts FIRST. Make more ways of playing the game fun and viable again. Then you can go nerfing Ursan if you want to.

I wouldn't mind if they nerfed Ursan either. As long as they buff other non usable skills so we've got more choice when it comes to builds as a whole that are effective. Personally I think every skill should be used in at least one build, and be effective to the point where there isn't another skill that out does it. But I'm guessing that's impossible.

But as I said I think 99% of the skills that were nerfed should NOT be reverted, because there's no need as PvE is immensely easy as it is. I think buffing non used skills a bit would add a bit more variety and fun to the game that bores so many.

arcanemacabre · May 13, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

First and foremost, REMOVE THE TIMER FROM SOUL REAPING FOR PVE.

If the Necro still gets plenty of energy in even the most difficult battles, why does there need to be any further changes (except perhaps further nerfing)? The mechanic of Soul Reaping itself is broken, indeed, but reverting it/removing the timer won't change that at all. The only thing that accomplishes is more energy, which is not needed at all. It's fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. People have suggested removing the minion cap. I agree. I posted reasons why it's a good idea and reasons why it wouldn't be another Ursan-grade steamroller in the original PvE/PvP Split thread, only to see it deleted as "off topic." Maybe tomorrow I'll get around to reposting it.

MMs are still powerful, if not more so than they were due to [Order of Undeath] and [Jagged Bones]. Massive armies are fun, but they are severely overpowered, especially with those elites. Just look at a combination like [Animate Vampiric Horror] and [Order of Undeath] with unlimited minions. Yeesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

4. Pet Corpses. I'd kinda like to see B/P viable again.

Agree with this, but not really for B/P, just more of a principle.

(and it wouldn't be overpowered in PvE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

5. Splinter weapon. Hi, this is PvE; we do have mobs where the target limit matters a ton.

Still works fine. My theory is if it ain't broken, don't fix it - [Splinter Weapon] ain't broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

7. GftE - remove that recharge.

8. Watch Yourselves - total revert.

Recharges should stay - Paragons are still the gods of PvE. Though I do agree with the revert of [Watch Yourself!] as far as the # of attacks goes. That aspect makes it entirely useless in PvE. It is broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

11. Remove armor stack cap for PvE.

What!? You can't be serious.

Racthoh · May 13, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

I want to play OoB boon prot again.

Dr Strangelove · May 13, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

My theory is if it ain't broken, don't fix it

This pretty much sums it up. Minion masters, splinter, and paragons aren't broken in any way.

Random Scrubinator · May 13, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

It would be pretty funny to have all the previous nerfs reverted, and add those things to various mobs in hard mode. Mobs running minion factories without minion caps, Ritual Lord spammers, etc. would be pretty funny

Yichi · May 13, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I want to play OoB boon prot again.

dear god yes!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

BECAUSE PARAGONS ARE BAD IN PVE AMIRITE???????????????????

to retarded people they are.

Adja1005 · May 13, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I'd like to see Sundering Shot, Penetrating Shot, Power Shot and Precision Shot returned to the way they were before the nerf. When Anet nerfed these skills they effectively killed them off. There is really no effective excuse for using these skills since the nerf as they all suck. Please revert them back or atleast increase the damage dealt by them slightly.

MisterB · May 13, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

I'd like to see Sundering Shot, Penetrating Shot, Power Shot and Precision Shot returned to the way they were before the nerf. When Anet nerfed these skills they effectively killed them off. There is really no effective excuse for using these skills since the nerf as they all suck. Please revert them back or atleast increase the damage dealt by them slightly.

Prior to the previous buff, were those ever used? The recent nerf was only after a previous buff.

I'd like a "Watch Yourself!" revert, but I won't hold my breath. They fundamentally changed the functionality, and it sounds like this PvP/PvE split just changes numerical values. SY has taken its place on my bar in PvE, anyway.

Hell Raiser · May 13, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Where did they say they were separating attributes? I thought it was only skills... If they're doing the same thing to attributes, I say don't change SR at all, it was way overpowered. Before the change you never had to think about energy management, you didn't even have to look at your energy, you had an unlimited supply. The current SR is fine, if you're having problems with your energy then you're doing something wrong.

Also I say don't change minion cap (which also isn't related to skills), I believe it was nerfed with PvE in mind. I would love to see some monk changes (just leave my Prot Spirit alone), like LoD.

Adja1005 · May 13, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Prior to the previous buff, were those ever used? The recent nerf was only after a previous buff

But at the present moment those skills are hardly, if ever, used at all in any Ranger bar because their next to useless. Before hand they were a nice change to use instead of going the usual interupt, splinter barrage, condition build.

The old turret build was pretty fun to use in PvP or PvE. But people QQed about it being overpowered and Anet effectively have killed those skills now.

Mewcatus · May 13, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

So much griefing.

For those who wish to continue to play with PvP based Skill rules system in PvE. ( AKA pre-patch ).

Go to this thread and make an active vote for it.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10287497
An idea to have an additional toggle for which skill system to use.

Now, that solves alot of problems, doesn't it ?
1. Those who desire the reversion, gets it.

2. Those who wishes for a minimal difference bond between PvP and PvE, gets it.

The only ones left who would be unstatisfied are those with a desire to dictate that how others should play. ( AKA the Dominators ).

Aba · May 13, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

old sand shards dervish......

Kapral · May 13, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

They could totally make everyone happy on this and by happy I mean any reasonable person.

Nerf UB (all of those anti-UBers stfu)
Unnerf most of the previously super nerfed skills. People will start using real builds again, but still have the opportunity of doing Elite areas and vanquishing at a fast pace if they can work it out.

Haskell · May 13, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

First and foremost, REMOVE THE TIMER FROM SOUL REAPING FOR PVE.

Sorry, but the Necro-primary is still the most powerful primary of all classes. So erm,... just NO MAYBE?

For Paragons? I agree, also one of the most powerfull classes overall. As said, no buffs needed. PvE is easy enough.

Grammar · May 13, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Revert LoD.

LoD was nerfed for the sole reason of removing it from GvG play, because it had become to powerful/prominent/critical there. It became a sort of "second linchpin" next to PS/SB (the ULTIMATE GW linchpin), and it was decided that that was a bad thing (one linchpin is enough, I guess). It can never be brought back in PvP for this reason, but now it can be brought back in PvE. And there's no better time to do that than with the very first "PvE only" skill update.

tmakinen · May 13, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

What would make my characters happier?

Elementalist's pledge: Stoneflesh Aura used to last 21 seconds at 16 Earth Magic. While it's still possible to keep it up permanently it lost the sync with Obsidian Flesh. Minor inconvenience but would love to see a revert.

Monk's pledge: Mystic Regeneration, please remove the cap. 9 pips of regen just isn't good enough when you're hit with 10+ pips of degen by monsters.

Ranger's pledge: Energizing Wind, please revert duration back to what it used to be.

Other wishes I've already seen mentioned above.

Mewcatus · May 13, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Revert LoD.

LoD was nerfed for the sole reason of removing it from GvG play, because it had become to powerful/prominent/critical there. It became a sort of "second linchpin" next to PS/SB (the ULTIMATE GW linchpin), and it was decided that that was a bad thing (one linchpin is enough, I guess). It can never be brought back in PvP for this reason, but now it can be brought back in PvE. And there's no better time to do that than with the very first "PvE only" skill update.

I am actually for a more radical revert.

Just revert everything back for PvE, and see what happens. After all whats the worse that could happen ?

Entire GW PvE populace quit ?

Mass Chaos ?

As far as I can see, the only real thing that might happen in such a radical case is a mass flood of complaints going to the forums. ( Which is again why I advocate for a secondary option mode of play, for those who desire PvP skill rules in PvE )